Monday, June 9, 2008

Let's Talk Toys #2

(I was originally going to post this in the "comments" section of my first "Let's Talk Toys" post, but changed my mind at the last minute, deciding it might work better as a separate post.)

I don't have the time and/or the energy to respond to every individual point raised or question asked, but I will try to hit here what I see as the key issues.
Before I get into it, I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who commented passionately while doing so civilly. It makes for a much more pleasant read and a productive discussion, don't you think?

(And as an aside -- in one of those odd, serendipitous life moments, I was driving home today, listening to NPR while musing about this response I was going to write, when what came on the radio but a fascinating story about what I believe was called the "Hip-Hop Chess Federation". Actually, I just Googled it, and came up with their website (http://www.hiphopchessfederation.org/).
What intrigued me the most was this one guy they were interviewing who was drawing the comparisons between chess and music, as both rely fundamentally on mathematics. And I thought "Huh... I bet Donatello would like to join a group like that!")

Okay, the first thing I'd like to address are the comments made by several people about how poorly TMNT toys do in stores compared to Toyline A or Toyline B, because it's plain to see that those other toys always sell out. Really? Is this an anecdotal, seat-of-the-pants, off-the-cuff estimate, or do you have insider information from the toy companies in question about (a) what they actually shipped to ALL the stores, and (b) how many of those items shipped actually sold? I seriously doubt it's the latter. It's easy to make those kinds of judgments, but not always accurate. There can be any number of other factors involved. For example, how may of you have had the experience of going to one toy store and not finding even one example of a particular figure or vehicle... then going to another toy store and finding a whole bunch of them? I remember when I used to buy a lot of toys, this would happen quite often, to the point where I developed a routine when I looked for a particular type of toy -- for some things I'd first head to Toy's 'R' Us, for other to KayBee, for others WalMart, and so on. There is substantial store-to-store variation, in my experience.

Second, I would like to request that, when we have these discussions, that everyone PLEASE refrain from making this type of comment: "If Playmates put (fill in the blank) in the TMNT toy line, I guarantee it would sell!" When I saw this in one person's comment, I had to mightily resist the almost overwhelming urge to respond with a snarky/sarcastic comment to the effect of "Will that guarantee be in cash held in escrow, bonds, gold bullion, etc.? Will you be guaranteeing the entire cost of production, or just estimated sales, or both?" Really, I know how very tempting it is to say this when you think you have a really good idea, one that JUST CAN'T MISS!!! -- but the sad fact of the matter is that, while every so often it happens, it is hardly a regular occurrence, especially in the toy industry.

Third, I would ask that everyone take a deep breath, and then perhaps a "chill pill", when contemplating and commenting on what some of you are calling "Rapper Don". Now, I feel about rap/hiphop much like I feel about jazz and country -- I don't listen to a lot of it, but of what I've heard, I like a little of it quite a bit, and the rest I can take or leave. That being said, I couldn't remember Playmates having come to us with an idea called "Rapper Don", so I dug around at Mirage and found the stack of "concept art boards" that the Playmates dudes had left with us from their past few visits, and went through them until I found the board in question. This showed one of six of what you could safely call "music-themed" figures. In deference to Playmates, I'm not going to post the artwork or go into great details. Suffice it to say that I think these "music-themed" figures are actually pretty clever and fun, and I thought then (as I still think NOW) that, as figures that fall into the "dress up" category (that is to say, the Turtles or other TMNT-related figures put into outfits that may or may not make logical sense vis a vis story lines in the comics or the movies or the animated TV series, but which have their own sense of playfulness and whimsy), these are no more or less preposterous than, for example, "SWAT Team Leo" or "Army Don". In all honesty, of the six figures, I think Don's isn't the greatest, but mostly because I'm not HUGELY excited about how his weapon is integrated into the figure's accessories. It's not bad, just not fabulous. (The others are, in my opinion, VERY clever... especially Leo.)
And Don's not called "Rapper Don" -- on the concept art board, he is labeled as "DJ 'D'". I suppose to some folks that immediately makes him a "rapper", but I guess I see it a bit more expansively.

Fourth, and finally, and at the risk of sounding like a "broken record" (huh... I just realized that expression is now virtually an anachronism), I'd like to reiterate that Playmates makes toys for KIDS. As far as as I can tell, they have never really wanted to spend a lot of time or effort in the "collectors" market, the sole exception being those lovely large resin sculptures of the four Turtles they did a couple of years ago. (And now that NECA is in the picture and so far doing a GREAT job of addressing the needs of the "collectors" market, there may be no NEED for Playmates to jump into that arena.) While I am not privy to all the inner workings of Playmates, I have a strong suspicion that they have done, and continue to do, a lot of research into what kids want, and what they want to play with, and HOW they want to play. I saw a number of comments that bemoaned the fact that Playmates is doing some things that they've already done once or twice. Well, yeah... but the fact of the matter is that there are always going to be a fresh batch of new kids, kids for whom what some of YOU may think of as old, boring, stupid rehashed toys are actually brand new and cool... and, most important, FUN TO PLAY WITH!!! -- PL

72 comments:

  1. I'd just like to know what happened to the 2K3 styled, ultra detailed Raph bust that I believe was Playmate's product. He looked awesome. I saw a photo of it and it was supposed to come out a year or two ago, at least he captions said so. I was REALLY looking forward to adding it to my Raph collection.

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  2. I appriciate the response, but I do think it glossed over several good point, one of which I would like to point out.

    As another blogger noted in the first posts comments:

    -----Concerning Jagwar, people are extremely disappointed that the figure is not being produced because it's already been sculpted and instead we're getting two other made-up characters that have no history with the brand at all. Figures of non-existant characters seems like a tough sell in the first place, so more explanation on how this decision was made would be appreciated for the fans who were looking forward to the Jagwar figure.

    So, I figured, to rephrase it, I would like to ask this question: Why is it that figures of preexisting characters (such as Jagwar) are disapproved in exchange for characters that never existed in the comics or tv shows or movies? How is it considered more profitable to produce a figure noone has heard of rather than producing figures that would already have a small built in following in addition to the random buyers one would get it without having heard of the character?

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  3. hey I just had an idea that I guarantee would sell out!...just kidding ;-)


    in all seriousness though, even though I think NECA has done a really good job, I think I have a few issues with them being the "collector" brand now.

    Maybe I shouldn't be this way, but I am really into brand loyalty. I guess this has been to the benefit of Mirage over the years as I haven't went off and started collecting something else and ditched the TMNT. Well I kind of feel the same way about Playmates. I have been buying Playmates TMNT products since 1989, almost 20 whole years, nearly my entire life thus far! Now all of a sudden, I'm supposed to ditch them and go to the company thats for adult collectors, because I'm not a kid anymore? Maybe so, but I have a really hard time doing that. If Playmates wasn't making them anymore I'd be fine with that cause I wouldn't have a choice, but I do, and in my mind the entire run from 88-current is all part of one giant collection, even if they weren't intended that way, I think its cool that my Dumpjumper can interact with Pizzaface or Groundchuck and know they are all part of the same toy line.

    Another issue I have with NECA is distribution. Living where I do in a regular populated area with much retail availability, I still had to drive great lengths to get to an FYE store and then had to check back over and over to get them all. Now I know that the internet can get me anything I want, but I think for your broad audience of "on the fly" buyers being readily available is a very important aspect of having them be successful at retail, and the fact that NECA figures are pretty much limited to Suncoast, FYE, Hot Topic, and Spencers means that you can really only get the figures at shopping malls and not everyone has that kind of mall in close proximity.

    My final issue with them is price point, the only places you can get them is speciality retail, and it shows in the price point. Now I am by no means cheap, I've bought TMNT figures that have cost me over a hundred dollars in the past. However, in these harsh economic times the price of toys has risen considerably, and when I can get two or even sometimes three Playmates figures for the price of one NECA, and not even have to drive all over the place to find it, its almost like no contest.

    Please don't think I hate NECA, I own a lot of their products and the TMNT figures are sitting in front of me as I type this, but if that line continues to expand in to a vast universe of characters the things I've stated above will likely hinder my collecting them.

    This is why in the case of Playmates figures, even if they are meant for kids if they would just throw us "adults" a bone once in a while, in giving us a character we might like to see, or turtle variants that actually made a show or comic appearance. Thats all it would take to keep me happy. I don't swear to have all the answers, but at the very least even if I didn't collect another figure ever again, I want the TMNT to be successful for everyone involved and I know nothing about numbers but just from my years of toy aisle browsing I think the way to do this is to have new and exciting characters and concepts available, affordable, and innovative. I really really believe all these things can be accomplished at once while still pleasing the adults, the kids, the collectors, everyone it will just require a lot of brainstorming.

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  4. Just get them to lose the stupid chain with the D on it!

    OH, and he should wear pants, not thigh-warmers (unless Playmates ARE trying to reach out to the "hardcore" female Don fans)

    And thanks for responding to the passionate toy collectors who also play with their toys like kids, and don't just store them MIC like that collector alien in one of the few good Fast Forward episodes.



    Oh, and MORE Splinter toys.

    *runs away laughing*

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  5. I'm happy this debate is happening and glad that you guys (aka - you, Peter!) in the know and top are listening and at least somewhat absorbing some of our opinions on the matter, even if they're sometimes a little selfish and or rabidly fan-crazed.

    Don't take it to heart, but at least know that its coming from those of us who have longheld ties to the brand and deeply care about the franchise.

    I must now reiterate my original gripe about the "silly" variations. I'd like to think that now, at 27 years old, I still have a pretty similar toy-buying mind than I did back when I was 7 or 8. I still am only interested in figures, playsets or products that are directly related to the established story and characters themselves. THAT is why we all put our money down for it all in the first place. THAT is where our interest all started at and will end at - THE STORY AND CHARACTERS. Nothing else really matters. If we hated the story and characters, we never would have moved on to the next step of buying any of the products in the first place.

    All most of us want is respect to be paid to the integrity established by the great storylines and characters that you guys at Mirage have created. We, as fans, want the toys to be an extension of that - Of the comics and cartoons you have made, of the characters we have come to know from those outlets.

    The only time we, as old fans can relate music and Ninja Turtles is when we think back to the Coming Out of Their Shells Tour or them dancing to Vanilla Ice in the second movie - not exactly the best impression. As for the new fans - they have nothing to relate music and ninja turtles to. Especcially if their most familiar dealing with the turtles are the recent (or any) cartoons or the latest TMNT movie.

    But this isn't just about Music Don. This is simply about a company (Playmates) making these story/character-unrelated figures take presedence over a long list of other possible releases that would make much, much more sense...to the fans (kids and adults alike).

    Thanks for listening, Peter.

    -r

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  6. Pete,

    Sometimes I almost think of fans and the companies that make the products as married couples, giving ground and taking it a bit at a time..not always happy with each other, but never seriously upset ;). This might be the one case where we agree to dis agree :).

    But back when the 3rd season of the new show was on, I made a point to stop in any toy store around just to check things out when we went to a local mall. In at least 6 stores, all I EVER saw where Variants. Tons and Tons of variants stacked on the shelves. There was one that was stacked up more than the others, and I think those where the mutation ones.

    It was the same in all 5 stores in the area. Kaybee, Toys R Us, K-Mart, etc...You literally had to dig through to find a non turtle figure.

    So, that tells me one of a few possabilities.

    - Collectors are buying the rarer second characters and selling on ebay, perhaps..

    - Playmates is doing a Mattell and short packing secondary figures for some reason.

    - People are snapping up the secondary figures rather than have 20 turtles in their collection just lying around on a desk and ignored..or for variety's sake.

    It's not a question of wether or not these are fun to play with. All toys are to some extent. It's a question on wether they will sell.

    I may be shooting myself in the foot with this one, but do any of you dudes visit the local retail toy stores on occasion? I have not looked at the aisles in a while, but I am willing to bet that the turtle variants are still stacked on the shelves just like they where a few years ago...

    I know allot of conversations from now on are going to be rehashing the same stuff, so forgive my broken recordness :)..

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  7. Peter, I have made a few comments regarding the now famous and legendary "Rapper Don" figure. And I have to say that I completely understand where you are coming from. Playmates and Mirage are in business and when you are in business you need to make money to be successful. No one is going to produce a product which in most cases brings with it a heavy cost just becuase there is some interest in it. You need to be sure that there is the potential for money to be made. I, like most of the fans that post on the various TMNT related blogs would love it if everything my heart desired was produced but such is not the case. I must admit that I am not particularly fond of the action figure in question and probably won't buy it but when it comes to the TMNT I'll take what I can get when I can get it.

    So I continue to support all of you guys at Mirage and pray for many more years of TMNT success, because after all we fans can have the current TMNT toys, comics, and cartoon or none at all. It could all be gone in a minute. As a fan you need to ask yourself "what would you prefer?"

    Keep up the good work Pete and may the superhero gods keep the Turtles and the Mirage crew blessed.

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  8. Oh, and as for your last four words-- "fun to play with"-- if I didn't make myself clear (or others didn't), we DO play with our toys.


    We're like train hobbyists.. we play with our toys. Yes, there are those who want to keep them trapped in their plastic prisons, but there are those of us who free them and pose them and stage scenes/battles/etc...


    Anyway, once more, thanks for engaging in this discussion.

    And MORE Splinter toys.

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  9. I know this may seem rather nit-picky, and it's honestly not meant to be, but wasn't Playmates' Star Trek: TNG line of yesteryear geared somewhat toward collectors? I believe that each figure was even individually numbered, which I'd imagine was intended to appeal to a collector's mentality. Granted, it would seem that the Star Trek fan-base is substantially larger than that of the Turtles, and additionally consists of a greater number of "older" fans. Therefore, Playmates may have felt that there was more of a potential collectors' market to tap into with the Star Trek property. Whatever the case, from a consumer's perspective, it seemed that the line did rather well, but I do realize that I'm in no real position to say whether or not this was the case.

    While I don't have data from your side of the desk, it seems to me that if they chose to do so, Playmates could diversify a bit and appeal to a broader range of fans. Not to beat a dead horse, but Hasbro currently has numerous versions of the Marvel characters on the shelves—aimed at preschoolers through collectors—and they appear to do relatively well in terms of sales. Additionally, Hasbro's Marvel toys seem to be given a greater amount of shelf space, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that that has something to do with the fact Hasbro is a larger and more influential toy company than Playmates, as well as the fact that Marvel—like Star Trek—arguably enjoys a substantially larger and broader fan-base.

    As a child, I didn't mind the idea of variants at all. If a variant was cool enough in my young mind, I'd buy it/ask for it. (For example, Leo, the Sewer Samurai.) However, I never cared much for the "wacky" variants, as I admittedly preferred the more serious tone of the Mirage comics, and therefore wished for more serious variants. (Hey, I was a serious kid!) The variants that I always wanted to see would have fallen more along the lines of Leo in his outfit from Vol. 1, #12, Don with a huge tool belt and tons of tools and gadgets, the wrestling Turtles from TMNT Adventures, etc., etc., etc.. In all honesty, I can say that I never wanted to own a "SWAT Team Leo" or "Army Don", as they would have seemed almost as silly/useless to me as a Turtle in a sombrero. Also, I can honestly say that I never bought or asked for any of the Turtle variants that I deemed silly. To me, a variant needed to relate directly to a character's personality somehow, or in some way be anchored to a story from one of the TMNT universes. I realize that the buying habits of one kid from many years ago is hardly enough to base any sort of judgement on, but the only person that I am capable of speaking for is myself.

    At this point in time, however, I finally own the four TMNT action figures that I have most wished for since childhood, thanks to NECA's TMNT line. That being the case, I'm honestly not overly concerned with which direction the Playmates line takes, as I realize that they are not seeking my dollar. I wish Playmates no ill will at all, and I hope that they enjoy continued success with the TMNT license. Whether I enjoy or purchase their products or not, their success does benefit the TMNT property as a whole.

    In the meantime, here's hoping that NECA enjoys great success as well, so that we older TMNT fans may continue to collect and enjoy TMNT action figures that are aimed at and marketed specifically to us.

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  10. I think when the "justification" for a figure needs to be explained with the use of Google and NPR that should be a clue that the arrow has missed the mark. By a mile. And BTW, none of those hip-hop chess players are dressed like "Music Don."

    I'm saddened that you continue to dismiss all of the good comments that have been made. I mean, an entire paragraph because a few people opted to say "Rapper Don" instead of the generic "Music Don"? My feelings about the figure don't change whether he's called "Music Don," "Rapper Don," or "DJ 'D'."

    I'd still like some further insight and explanation for the logic used to approve and reject figures.

    Hasbro actually polls Star Wars fans about what figures they should make and then they actually listen and make some of the figures based on the poll results. This is fact, not anecdote. Their entire line-up isn't determined this way, but enough so to keep the adult collector fans interested in the toys they produce. Last year, in cooperation with Lucasfilm, they even released a special limited figure based ON a fan (R2-KT, if you're not familiar). Playmates and Mirage are absolutely refusing to acknowledge TMNT fans period. Why?

    Whatever happens with "Music Don," just please fix his pants. I'm willing to forgive the shoes that have toes, but the pants are all kinds of wrong.

    (Arg, I'll get this right eventually!)

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  11. Aw how cute. I'm assuming point #2 was targeted at me as that was one of my ideas. Had you read the entire comment of mine you'd see I made a suggestion to try a pre-order before production of the figures began. But see that would void the entire need for you to address the statement and undermine your point so you graciously left that out of your "comeback".

    You want to know my "street creds" on toys selling. I had 3 wal-marts and 4 Targets I went to all spread across a rather large area of California. I saw the same story at every store I went to. On top of that my fellow turtles friends, yes more then one of them, who live on the east coast all the way on the other side of the country are telling me, and showing me pictures actually, it's the same story over there I start to make my assumptions.

    I can't speak for Middle America, maybe the movie line is a big hit in Nebraska but from what I can see it's not to hot on the coasts. Your right I'm no expert but unlike you and all these big toy execs I'm in the stores more often watching what kids buy and seeing what gets stocked and so are other turtles fans.

    If you want a little business stand point view on turtles right now I can give you that too. I worked at Best Buy and I used to check the turtles DVDs all the time. The 2K3 DVDs sold poorly and only a few copies were ever ordered by all the stores in my district. We would get 2 copies of each 2K3 release. The old toon DVDs sold like mad and we got constant shipments of them. On top of that the new movie didn't sell so hot and the first week it came out we ended up with so many left overs we stopped ordering it. We ending up having to order more of the 3 pack and the singles of the older films. I've since quit but I hear the new 2K3 "Ninja Tribunal" DVD isn't even being carried at Best Buy anymore.

    What does this prove? Well either California doesn't like the new series much or that people love the old series more then the current one. Again I've heard similar stories from friends who live ont he east coast. I also have a friend who worked at the Best Buy in Minnesota who told me it was the same story there. Your probably wondering why I even bothered mentioning this as it has nothing to do with toys which is the subject of discussion, but I feel it ties directly into the general publics view on turtles right now.

    In my personal opinion this to me is just another reason there should be a push for a retro-line, especially now that the 25 years is coming up. Maybe that's a surprise you have for us that hasn't been revealed yet I don't know but I'm doing ramming that idea down your throat since your obviously not keen on it.

    Think what you want about the fan base and our "unqualified" ideas but we keep the franchise alive and are dedicated. Some of us more then others as you can see but I wouldn't take advantage of that or you might lose some long term fans.

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  12. Mr Laird I think everyone is calling Donny a rapper because he was posted on Murphy's blog as "P-Donnie" (like P-Diddy the rapper). The toy wasn't called DJ Don.

    Also regarding how toys sell. Yes there are toy collecting websites that gather all press releases regarding toy company sales. Still there are more "roots" oriented approaches we fans take to see how well our favorite toy lines are doing. We all talk with each other through the internet. For example there are websites that have features where you can post toy sightings all across North America. Another clue is just how fast product comes in to replace sold out product. When you track your favorite toy line you want to know how it's doing. And obviously the ultimate indication on a toy line's success or failure is if it gets cancelled or a store stops carrying it. (Marvel toys was making an independent comic book toy line which was sold mostly at Wal-Mart. The guy in charge of the toy line at Marvel toys said sales were great and a month later the toy line was canceled. He only spoke out because fans thought the line was canceled already mainly because everyone's Wal-Mart had a huge glut of figures that weren't selling well at most people's stores. Some Wal-Marts clearanced, some still have the product on shelves even though the line was officially canceled half a year ago.)

    So in the turtle's case I walk into Wal-Mart and see the same exact figures I saw a month ago, which are the movie figures which were originally released last year. Power Rangers, Transformers, GI Joe, they're all on different series or their entire toy line has changed over into some different branding.

    I'm not going to lie and pretend like I know all the sales figures, the profit each company is making, or anything like that. But one super wal-mart stopped carrying the turtles line altogether. That's huge! In a bad way. They have 3 aisles of toys and no turtles. It's not like they sold out either, there aren't any pegs for turtles. That seems to be an isolated thing, but I've never walked into a Wal-Mart that didn't have Star Wars or Transformers.

    I know I'm repeating myself but I just thought it should be said again. I'll continue supporting the NECA toy line, and again I appreciate that you made that deal happen.

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  13. Mk lets see, I didn't buy variants as a kid and I wont buy them now unless they have relevance to the show, comics or are done by a Mirage artist like the aliens in the Alien hunter line.

    If the NECA line is for Adult collectors and the Playmates line is for kids I don't mind a bit but how about asking fans just exactly they would like to see or would buy from the NECA line of figures or what they really wouldn't be to interested in.

    Like Rose suggested how about doing a poll for each series and fans can vote for their favorite character from any universe that mirage owns the rights to being made into something great by NECA.
    I know the fact just about everyone in the fandom wants an Armaggon figure should be something that should be at least noted.

    I know I never got back to you on why I thought we should have NECA make updated versions of old toon characters such as Bebop & Rocksteady to help sales, but I've been in the hospital.

    I know you feel as if Playmates did a bang up job on them back in the 80's but they just aren't accurate to the cartoon, random people love these characters in a nostalgia factor sort of way which could only boost sales of the NECA line. I really don't see it hurting anything to at least try the 1 or 2 fan favorites in the lineup idea for a series or 2 and see how it does.
    Rocksteady for instance in the show has a pot belly as we can even see on the new Retro T-shirt of he and Bebop.
    Trust me when I say this I'm not fighting for the old toon to be on top at all Mirage disserves that spot more than anything else, but having these characters that are adored by many aren't going to hurt you they're only going to help. :)

    Now about Playmates I feel the biggest problem beyond DJ Don or whatever silly Variant we're being shown is the lack of detail the we as kids had been given in the 80's and 90's.
    Why can't kids today enjoy the same great detail and care put into the new figures as we did growing up?
    If Playmates really wants to take pages from it's history that's fine but they should at least go back to the detail they once had and perhaps some better package designs as the 80's line had.

    Also I'd like to bring up something that I think is freaking out allot of fans in many areas of the country but I can only speak for my area of PA, and that is the fact that all Wal-marts one of the biggest retailers for TMNT figures is now no longer selling the figures in their stores or have moved them to the back wall with clearance items.
    Here is a photo I took with my cell phone because I wanted to show you, I wish I could show you the Wal-marts that no longer sell TMNT. If you would like to see I could go to them and show you?
    http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v241/Harmophious/0605081505.jpg

    I was getting aggravated so I haven't said what I thought on all of this because I was starting to feel that it didn't matter and felt like you weren't listening or just skipping over peoples genuine thoughts and concerns and that perhaps you were taking some comments to much to heart as anyone can but if people didn't love this property so much they wouldn't speak up.
    You don't have to agree with what any of us say or go and run with the ideas but I thank you for at least looking everything over, it's so nice to be able to know you're hearing us out.

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  14. Yeah, there is truth to this notion that Wal-Marts are cutting TMNT out of their stores. Unfortunately, my hometown Wal-Mart in Silsbee, Texas (and nextdoor town Lumberton) are among them. I used to buy the new ones the day they got ones I didn't have in (all those short-packed one-per-box secondary figures we all love so much). But now I have to go to nearby Beaumont to look for any.

    -r

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  15. I left a message over on Murph's blog after he posted the image of DJ D. I now kind of regret that comment. I understand how Playmates may be making toys for kids and NECA is starting to make some awesome collectables for those of us who grew up with the turtles and want to get nostalgic. After reading the playmates response as well as this entry, I guess now I see Donny as a guy who could be a really good hip hop artist. I, like many of my peers were probably just throwing my own predilictions onto the post. I still have some issues with how the figure looks, but you know how I'm going to deal with that? I won't buy it.

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  16. "roseangelo said...
    I think when the "justification" for a figure needs to be explained with the use of Google and NPR that should be a clue that the arrow has missed the mark. By a mile. And BTW, none of those hip-hop chess players are dressed like "Music Don.""

    A "justification"? Your words, not mine. I included that bit as an "aside" (did you not see that word?) which I thought was interesting. Your comments about Google and NPR baffle me.

    "I'm saddened that you continue to dismiss all of the good comments that have been made. I mean, an entire paragraph because a few people opted to say "Rapper Don" instead of the generic "Music Don"? My feelings about the figure don't change whether he's called "Music Don," "Rapper Don," or "DJ 'D'.""

    And you KNOW I have "dismiss(ed) all the good commments that have been made" HOW...? And it wasn't just because "a few people opted to say "Rapper Don"", it was because it seemed to me that a big deal was being made about this particular Don being a "rapper", with several commenters remarking on how awful it was "for the kids" to put Don in this guise.

    "I'd still like some further insight and explanation for the logic used to approve and reject figures.

    Hasbro actually polls Star Wars fans about what figures they should make and then they actually listen and make some of the figures based on the poll results. This is fact, not anecdote. Their entire line-up isn't determined this way, but enough so to keep the adult collector fans interested in the toys they produce. Last year, in cooperation with Lucasfilm, they even released a special limited figure based ON a fan (R2-KT, if you're not familiar). Playmates and Mirage are absolutely refusing to acknowledge TMNT fans period. Why?

    Whatever happens with "Music Don," just please fix his pants. I'm willing to forgive the shoes that have toes, but the pants are all kinds of wrong."

    Do you know what the image Murph posed on his blog actually is, Rosemary? It's what is called a "first shot" -- it's when the toy company tests out the molds they have made to see what all the parts look like when they have been rendered in plastic, to make sure all the parts fit together as they should and also give the toymakers a way to evaluate the figure at that point and possibly make changes if needed. My understanding is that they use whatever plastic is handy, not necessarily what the final figure is going to be cast in, and they generally don't paint "first shots". That's why the figure in that photo has that strange look to its lower plastron and "pants". -- PL

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  17. Peter You'e missed roses point about the pants lol she's saying why are Don's pants going inside of his shell? shouldn't they cover the entire area unless those are his boxers hehe
    Rose knows what it is btw as do I, Tokka, Spitfire, etc.
    Fans aren't dummies (and I know you didn't say this) but we love every aspect of the creative process of the comics, toys, games, etc. that we look deep into it. Not like you knew that as no one's brought it up till now :P

    No one's against you Pete I can't help but feel like you feel perhaps like we're attacking you or your taking this all to heart.
    I hope I'm wrong :)

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  18. A "justification"? Your words, not mine. I included that bit as an "aside" (did you not see that word?) which I thought was interesting. Your comments about Google and NPR baffle me.

    Action figures aren't rocket science. If you can't look at 'em and understand their purpose, there's been a major misstep. I have nothing against Google or NPR, if that's what you were implying, but how many parents who buy these toys for the kids do you think are likely to do research on why it makes sense for a Ninja Turtle to be wearing bling?

    And you KNOW I have "dismiss(ed) all the good commments that have been made" HOW...?

    Hey, I'd love to be proven wrong on that one. If you're taking private notes and sending them off to Playmates, I'll gladly lead the cheer amongst the group. But even in my comment that you just replied to, you neglected the point I would have most liked a response to. I can only know what I see.

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  19. I think what Pete is saying is that the figure isn't finished and that, given the nature of the legs on the figure, they have to see if the pant leg legs will fit into the basic socket holes (as I'm assuming that all the variants use the same bodies and limb attachments. I'm sure the figure itself will have the shorts going over the plastron.

    The other thing is that I think when Murph posted the figure it was more to gage the concept itself, over the figure. If it was to judge the material figure, wouldn't it make more sense to post the final sculpt?

    Rose, I think that saying Playmates and Mirage are absolutely refusing to acknowledge TMNT fans is a little much. If Playmates wanted to pay attention to the fans then we would've got the adult geared figures we were after LONG ago. Mirage instigated the NECA deal to my understanding, which is specifically geared at us. If anything PLAYMATES are the ones to point the finger at.

    This whole situation feels a lot like the Fast Forward controversy a while back. It's been said over and over again... the movie line, like Fast Forward, is ultimately geared towards kids. Sure there might be a few of us collecting these things, but we're an EXTREME minority.

    I think the Star Wars thing is a little different too. Star Wars has a colossal fanbase, one that TMNT can only really hope to dent. Hasbro knows that they can have collector lines, and get involved with fans because they know there are enough there to warrant sales. All the army builder variants? Collectors. Once kids have a figure they usually don't get too many more of the same one (USUALLY). In any given Star Wars wave you will always have Anakin, Obi Wan, Vader or another core character from the recent prequels, because they know the kids will buy them, but they can put out other figures like Dark Troopers, Animated Debut Boba Fett, etc. because they will DEFINITELY sell too.

    Wasn't the KT figure a charity thing as well?

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  20. R2-KT was a charity figure, but the $100,000 Lucasfilm and Hasbro donated to the Make-A-Wish foundation was not reliant on action figure sales. They've also released a 501st figure, based on the fan organization, that was not tied to a charity. But I digress.

    I completely recognize that Star Wars is a wholly and massively different machine than TMNT. It exists on its own different little plane of toys and action figures separate from all others. But that's no reason for Playmates not to have a relationship with the TMNT fans. And based on the response from them that Murphy posted, they would rather be at odds with us than try to create a toy that can meet their sales needs while also satisfying fan interest.

    I also don't see the existence of the NECA figures as a reason to let Playmates (or Mirage) off the hook when it comes to making quality toys. No one is expecting Playmates to deliver figures on the same scale as NECA. My only personal hope is that they deliver something respectable to the TMNT that can further serve to solidify their place in the market. I still don't see how Music Turtles achieve that.

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  21. I again bring up point that you should try making a poll something to see how many people would actually buy the figures that have been requested. Sure we could do one of those online petitions but most people don't sign those because they know 90% of the time they never work.

    If someone like Playmates or oh say Mirage made one however I bet more people would pay attention to it and actually give some feedback on it. Hell it should be on the 4Kids website to. Have the children do the poll as well. Show them images of characters and ask them what one they'd like made into an action figure out of all the ones above. Then allow them to leave comments. Kids are truthful and will say if they really like one and really hate another so your not just getting votes but feedback as well.

    Test to see if the kids would also buy into the stuff us older fans are requesting. They might think Bebop is cool too they just don't know who he is yet because they've yet to be turned onto him. Some kids might know who he is because they bought the old cartoon DVDs too. There's a market right there.

    A friend of mine borrowed 28 Days Later from me awhile ago and I accidentally had my Season 2 of the old turtles series in the case. When she noticed it her daughter ended up watching it and loved it so much they bought her all the seasons. I was pretty blown away that the show stood up that much of a time gap to a kid whose 5 years old.

    Also my 8 year old cousin is absolutely fascinated with my turtles collection. He mainly likes the old figures and I gave him a few extras I had and he plays with them all the time. I gave him Sewer Samurai Leo, Baxter Stockman, and Slash. He was interested to learn who they were so I showed him episodes with Slash and Baxter in them and he ended up getting into the old series as well.

    I can see how this would make you feel like your back tracking here as you obviously have your issues with the old toon and I totally understand everyone of them. Your arguments are very valid for why you dislike it but you can't deny that most of your fans started with that series and hold it true and that series can still be marketed to kids today. You want proof of that look at Poke'mon. They've been doing the same thing for over 12 years and kids today still love it just like I did when I was in elementary school. It's a total trip to see kids still playing with Poke'mon stuff. Hell Power Rangers is still on too! I was amazed by that. They never dismissed their past either. From what I can tell, I don't personally follow it, they have games and make figures of old rangers and stuff all the time.

    I have a friend whose best friend is an actress, Michelle Langstone, on the series so she watches it all the time and every once in awhile she geeks out on it and tells me stuff about how old rangers make guest appearances and stuff. It's only fair I geek out about turtles to her all the time.

    At this point I'm babbling on and on but I hope you see what I'm getting at here, given that you even read this.

    A good quote I heard somewhere once was "I yell because I care" that's just like us Mr. Laird we yell because we care.

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  22. Just like to echo Vaughn's statement once again. Accurate classic Toon Turtle figures are a must. How cool would it be to have an 'unleashed' turtles line based on the old show?

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  23. -->> .. all the "VARIANT" issues, all the 2nd Characters, Playmates issues aside..

    ..back to the one single character that started this whole confusing cyclone .. the 'Music Donatello' ..

    .. on that one single issue, all the rest aside.

    " Pete has made the most sence to me about that one figure. "

    Just that one.

    .. now i shall continue to wrap my brain around the other comments.

    Some very good points all around.

    Thank you, guys. I am feeling a little better about some of this.

    Soem of it i'm still mixed up about.

    >v<

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  24. I know it's tough to judge emotion while reading comments in text, but it almost sounds like Pete might be taking things a bit personally. We're not trying to upset anyone with these comments, just trying to bring up some very valid points...

    And if Playmates refuses to change....maybe we can focus on NECA instead since that is where the adult market is? Is there any chance a NECA rep can be gotten a blog and we can discuss all our future products and needs with him/her?

    With the 25th coming up, there are so many cool product ideas for both the old and new show that are just screaming to be done, it's a shame that it's such a missed opportunity. Especially when we have Playmates giving us non related figures like Music Turtles.

    BTW:Yeah, most of us knew that was probably a prototype at best....us bashing how the figure looks is more or less part of our anger on why so many variants get made in the first place :). I mean, you wouldn't see the SW folks making Hanna Montanna Princess Lea.... or 'Pimp My Ride' Megatron :). So why should the turtles only be getting this treatment?

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  25. -->> Hey, Neil ..didn't Ryan state that NECA has the option to all TMNT venues including the TMNT Adventures Characters??

    **

    "BTW:Yeah, most of us knew that was probably a prototype at best....us bashing how the figure looks is more or less part of our anger on why so many variants get made in the first place :). I mean, you wouldn't see the ** SW folks making Hanna Montanna Princess Lea...." .. .. "

    -->> ..Damm near close..


    ** or 'Pimp My Ride' Megatron :). So why should the turtles only be getting this treatment? "

    -->> UMMM.. well maybe not Megatron.. >v<

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  26. My problem with DJ Diddy Don is that the whole concept of a music turtle theme seems to fly in the face of the overall more serious non-humor oriented tilt to the TMNT toy line since the 4Kids (and, yes, Peter Laird) relaunch in 2003. The variants we've had up to this point (Mystic, Paleo, Robo Hunter, etc.) have been more in line with the more serious (in terms of most story lines) gist of the TV series. That is, they make sense, story-sense.

    Furthermore, Diddy Don and Rasta Mike and the like are a throw-back to the old days but WITHOUT the natural humor inherit in the "dress up" variants of the time. These are not only without humor but also cynical. In addition, they in no way relate to anything "retro" (as that particular sub-branding will be covered by Playmates in a different product way/line).

    IMO.

    Off to Licensing Show...

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  27. -->> ..So this ' MUSIC ' brand is another Sub - Brand, a part of a whole.

    A product that
    .. good or bad, ultimatly if the thing bombs or not.. isn't that going to rest on when the real item is actially in stores ??

    If people buy the things or not.. isn't that going to be the ultimate lesson learned ??

    If they just sit there on the shelves, yeh and become the ' PEG WARMERS ' or if they become a decent seller. Ok what does Playmates learn ??

    Is the argument also about a disater waiting to happen or preventing one from happening ??
    (( IF SO .. that point has not been made from what i can tell. ))

    .. there have been some TMNT variants within the newer gen 2003 turtles line that had minimal connection to the Toon. Extreme Sports Turtles , M.E.S.S. Sports Turtles , Deep Diving Scuba Turtles.

    There appears to have been exceptions to the ' IN STORY , SERIOUS Turtles ' rule.

    Why is one line of ' MUSIC' variants differant than those other variants ?? It is a silly sounding line.

    But what if that the whole pointis " To be silly ??" .

    What if the point is they AREN'T SUPPOSED TO MAKE SENCE STORY WISE !?

    Why is an attempt to have a 'Wacky' theme a bad thing ??

    Bad Example : If it's gonna go up against any real ' RETRO 'toys by Playmates.. and the ' Music ' line really is bad, then maybe the Music line will tank and the Retro toys or whatever other TMNT products Playmates sells next year will sell better.


    Dunno.. the projections are way out there.

    This arguement bounces around so much, can anyone really blame somebody for being so confused ??



    >v<

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  28. you know i have not heard one complaint about zack the 5th turtle not being made as an action figure. wht the shell?????

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  29. I'd like to reiterate that Playmates makes toys for KIDS.

    Well, short of them making risque' figures with bunny suits, that does make sense with the name.

    I'm curious of the answer to Turkish Proverb's query as well.

    Also, I'm with Murph above on this one. I can't speak for kids today, but in my replies on his blog, I did try to echo what I liked when I was a kid.

    --LBD "Nytetrayn"

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  30. Oh, and meant to say "thanks for replying with your thoughts on the matter." :)

    --LBD "Nytetrayn"

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  31. Mr. Laird, I have a question in the same vein, and it actually is related to my response in your "Let's Talk Toys", part 1.

    Since they've been in Volume 4, the 4Kids series, and Tales, and the fact that your dredged them up from a scrapped story of the past, it seems to me that you are fond of the Super Turtles. Were there ever any talk of them being adapted to figure form? It seems weird that they were cross-medium, as well as the subject of a well-liked episode, and we still haven't seen the likes of Shellectro, Dr. Shreddarius, and The Sliver in plastic.

    Thank you for your time.

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  32. I'm with Murph.

    ...No, not at the licensing show.

    But what he said pretty much sums up my feelings for the music figure. It just seems badly conceived, especially when you hold it against the direction of the toys and franchise as a whole since the 2K3 relaunch.

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  33. I actually understand more about this stuff than I used to... Peter, thank you for clearing this up :) I was getting really confused by all the arguements going on in the comments before.

    I am actually becoming attached to "DJ D" now since what my sister said to me... I could be classed as a "Kid" I guess... lol! And I would like to have it to play with (I'm 17 :P)

    Speaking of the way toyshops have different things, over here there are two places that always stock TMNT toys. One mainly has FF ones while the other has TMNT movie ones and Alien Hunters :) There is also an outlet which I like to go in whenever I go to town because I can often find cheap TMNT toys from things (Movie ones, series stuff... etc.) which are perfectly fine, just cheap! XD Often they are older... and foreign! (I bought an Italian Shell-Kickers Raph from there) XD

    Many Thanks :)

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  34. i loved the playmates toys growing up, and i still cherish the few i have left (looking at the archive on ninjaturtles.com it dumbfounds me to think of how many i've lost over the years, ah youth)
    my favourite "absurd" turtle is breakfightin' raph, he fights by break dancing!
    i agree that playmates should focus on toys fun for kids, i can't imagine my youth without turtle toys.

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  35. I don't like this "fun" argument you keep relying on, Pete. Kids find Superman and Luke Skywalker toys fun without the respective toy companies who make those toys resorting to 'wacky' themes that are out of character. Don might have an eclectic music taste, but I can't see a context where he'd put on crotchless shorts and a chain.

    Don as always been portrayed as someone who embrace intelligence and learning. No matter what canonical version of the Turtles is being presented, that has always been consistent.

    It's refreshing to see in a society where our popular entertainment continues to perpetuate the message to kids that the only reward of learning will be endless ridicule.

    Don wearing that outfit is not only ridiculous but it's harmful. It says Don has embraced that culture and given in to conformity. And I'd think he'd be smart enough to know he doesn't need to do that to be 'fun'.

    At least think about the impact it'll have on kids. I used to get a lot of flack from peers for doing well in school. I'd be accused of trying to emulate whites and not being 'down' with my ethnic group. But I could always think back to Don when I was feeling bad. It'd be nice if kids in similar circumstances could still have Don to look to.

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  36. "don't like this "fun" argument you keep relying on, Pete. Kids find Superman and Luke Skywalker toys fun without the respective toy companies who make those toys resorting to 'wacky' themes that are out of character. "

    **

    -->> huh ?? ~~**

    >v<

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  37. -->> huh ?? ~~**

    Those are fun and creative toys, Tokka. It actually proves R's point wholly and fully. Right there are some awesome Superman and Darth Vader toys where neither character is pimped out like a Music Rapper DJ. I would love to see Playmates be as creative with the TMNT.

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  38. It seems like everyone has this idea that Playmates is just creating random toys on a whim. Like they have no idea what to come up with so they throw dart at a board and it hits "music" so they go with a music line? Now, I'm not in the toy business, so I don't know all the ins and outs, but in nearly all other entertainment and media businesses, they used little things called "focus groups" and "opinion polling" to see what kind of interest there is for a product or service. Advertisers use it more than anything, as well as companies that create products of entertainment.

    It was mentioned that someone should poll fans and see what we say. That is nearly guaranteed what they are already doing. You may no realize it, or have been asked for your opinion because you are not in their target market. Granted, I can tell some of the frustration here is because you are not part of the target market and would like to be considered part of the fanbase, but back to what Peter and Playmates have said, these figures are for kids. Kids will be the ones going into these focus groups to tell the marketing teams what they want to see in toys. Music is a large part of what kids and teenagers enjoy these days, especially rap and hip-hop. It's not difficult to imagine that there would be interest in these tying into TMNT figures.

    As I recall, when the vote was put to fans to choose a new theme song for the "Back to the Sewers" there were several rap/hip-hop versions made, and according to the updates on the TMNT website, there was quite a lot of interest in them (much to my dismay, perhaps as well as yours). Luckily, the song that won was something more catchy and one that I wouldn't hate to hear before every show.

    The point is, Peter is right here...these toys are for kids. Some of you say you are just thinking like you did as a kid when you bought these toys. The problem is, you were a kid then and not now. As much as I love the old 80's toon, in rewatching it is clearly very campy and cheesy. The newer version is much more serious and not over-the-top. It may seem odd that I'm arguing that a silly variant should be connected with a more serious toned show, but what I think would be fun doesn't really matter. The figure has already been green-lit hasn't it? There is obviously interest out there. I think the justification that Playmates gave on Murphy's blog makes perfect sense and I can get on board with it.

    That doesn't mean I have to go out and buy it. If I don't want them to make a certain type of figure, I won't buy it. If we all did that, we could show them what we really aren't interested in. Let the market decide.

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  39. -->> Some ' WACKY ' stuff, Rose..

    //


    Dario is currently working on the ' SUPER FRIENDS ' comic. Obviously aimed at a younger set. Mattel's Preschool Super Hero figures there are in line with the style of the comic. While i cannot say for certain, i would not be suprised if those figs are based on some of his designs.

    >v<

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  40. @Tokka:
    I wouldn't be surprised, either. Those toys really do look like his style.

    I definitely wouldn't mind Dario designing some TMNT toys. ^_^

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  41. Bryan :: " That doesn't mean I have to go out and buy it. If I don't want them to make a certain type of figure, I won't buy it. If we all did that, we could show them what we really aren't interested in. Let the market decide. "

    **

    -->> .. ' GOLD STAR ' to Bryan .. >v<

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  42. Oh, I'm going to "let the market decide alright" - by hiding every one of these "Music Don" things I ever find in a Wal-Mart under the kitty litter displays in the pet section, far out of reach from any unsuspecting children...haha, just kidding ;)

    -r

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  43. The target group can be kids I think we all agree there but there's no reason for Playmates to attempt to make both sides happy. Instead we get the finger and that's it. That's like your meeting favorite musician you've been listening to for a huge majority of your life, own all their CDs, go to every show, and when face to face with them they tell you to go fuck yourself.

    Well I don't know how that would make you feel but betrayed comes to mind. Like "Thanks for supporting me these 20 years you can stuff it. I only care about my new fans." That's Playmates mentality right now and if it isn't they have a very poor way of showing it.

    This Music figure I could give two flying shits about my gripe, as I've mentioned, is they don't even try to market stuff to kids that might please both them and fans. Of course kids aren't going to want figures of Bebop or Rocksteady they have no idea who they are. If they were turned onto them though, and again as I've said some have because of the old toon DVDs, they might love the idea of figures for them.

    I highly doubt they sat down a group of kids and asked them what they wanted and the majority said "Tons of the same turtle sculpt with different gear/clothing" And if that's the case I'd like Playmates to present me with some evidence of that.

    Actually I'd like to see some of the feedback from those Big Foot send aways while their at it. If most of them are asking for crap like this I'll just shut up about it. Though I'll still have an issue that Playmates doesn't attempt marketing things to both kids and adults using one of the methods I've mentioned. And I know they work as I've seen and given examples of them working.

    It's obvious Laird isn't reading this anymore as he obviously lost the argument. Which means he's going to ignore us now or run and hide somewhere. Basically what happened with Volume 4 though at least this time around he has the gusto to talk to us a little more then before and I appreciate that.

    Though if you are reading this Laird some advice for ya, learn how to take criticism. Being an artist yourself I would have thought you'd learned this by now.

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  44. Bryan,
    Ok then we'll all just stop supporting playmates since kids have all the money and the line can be just for them.
    It still wouldn't hurt them to put some damn detail or articulation into their figures so they don't look as bad as happy meal toys.
    ANYWAY...
    If they are going around asking kids what they want out of their toy line shouldn't we be asked as to what we the Fans would like to see in the adult based Neca figures line?

    Maybe we should stop talking about this retarded Dj Don figure and start asking hey ADULTS what would you like out of the line made for you.

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  45. "Well I don't know how that would make you feel but betrayed comes to mind. Like "Thanks for supporting me these 20 years you can stuff it." ..

    **

    -->> ..good point.

    >v<

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  46. wow, some people need to chill out. this isn't like being told to fuck off by your favorite band, this is getting two thought-out, respectful responses from peter.

    there aren't that many brands that take the time to communicate with the fans as much as those in charge of the tmnt are. it separates them from stuff like star wars, star trek, marvel/dc, even yr favorite bands and celebrities, and it works to the franchise's credit.

    dont like the figure? big deal. other people do, even if its not the vocal majority. it wasn't directed toward us anyway. if that really offends you, perhaps you have too much emotional investment in the tmnt. it really is just a fun little thing.

    just look at what has come out/what wil come out that is more directed to the older fans- NECA, more OT DVDs, a bunch of retro clothing, a new game that hopefully won't suck, the forever war... considering the humble roots and complicated history of the franchise, i think that's pretty cool.

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  47. -->> ..DT, you also have a very good point.

    Isn't the Turtle world big enough ( at this point ) to cater to just about every type of TMNT venue and every type of Turtle fan and interpretation ??

    I'd like to think so.

    >v<

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  48. You make a very good point, Vaughn Michael; NECA should consult with the fanbase as to what figures to create. With a line of figures that are being sold and marketed specifically as collector's items, it would only make sense. They haven't as of yet, but that is only because they just started this line, so they are going to do the obvious turtles and main characters first...they don't need our input to know that's what to do. I would hope that in the near future, they start some type of dialogue with us as to what we would like to see come out of this deal. If Peter, or the MIrage website were to let us know of any way NECA was reaching out for our input, I would be one of the first on that bandwagon. Perhaps the best thing to do now would be to find a way to communicate with NECA and get as many fans involved in letting them know we want our voice heard.

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  49. I dunno, as much as I'd like it to go infiniately, I personally dont see the NECA line going that far out of the way of (besides releasing bloody or black and white variants of the four turtles) only releasing a few more secondary figures such as April, Shredder, Foot Soldier and maybe Splinter and Casey Jones. They're probably going to try to stay with the most familiar characters that they know will be recognizable to people randomly walking by the pegs in these specialty shops.

    But hey, I hope it keeps going on and on... There's plenty to work with in the comics turtle realm (and plenty other characters I'd love to see actually made). And let's keep that in mind - I think that is what NECA's job is to focus on - the original comics Turtles, not the toons. If anyone should be focusing on toons characters it should be Playmates.

    After all, aren't they trying to cater to "kids"?

    -r

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  50. Darkturtle all I've seen come out of this is a division in the fans.

    Those willing to bow and accept anything that is thrown at them or those who stand up and say something when given the opportunity.

    If Laird didn't want feedback he wouldn't have posted this blog. Lying to him about how I feel hardly helps in any decision making. Same goes for everyone. It seems more people decided to stop being star struck and actually started speaking up.

    That's the issue here. "Ooooh Laird is talking to us!" So because of that your going to either keep your thoughts to yourself or tell him what he wants to hear. I've seen it before. Not saying you DT are guilty of that but I know plenty of fans who openly display anger towards Laird or Playmates in private but on message boards and blogs they hide it.

    Maybe I am to attached to it so what? Everyone has their "thing". Some people it's football. You want to see to attached go to a football game in London and watch the hooligans duke it over the match results. Hell any sporting event can cause something like this. Look what happens in Oakland over Raider games all the time.

    Turtles happens to be what I'm attached to, my favorite thing. I want to not only be heard as a fan but I want what I say and that of my other fellow fans to be taken into account. And Now that I see I'm not alone here in thinking what I do I even more so think our words should be considered; not twisted around, mocked, or ignored.

    You said Playmates statement wasn't the middle finger but plenty of people here agree that it is. So if that's taking it out of context you can argue that point with a majority. Basically telling your loyal fans of 20+ years in most cases that their opinions don't matter is the same as telling fans their business means nothing to them.

    "Thanks for buying, either continue to buy our toys or piss off." If other companies can pull of listening to fans Playmates has no excuse.

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  51. "Buslady of SoCal said...
    I'd just like to know what happened to the 2K3 styled, ultra detailed Raph bust that I believe was Playmate's product. He looked awesome. I saw a photo of it and it was supposed to come out a year or two ago, at least he captions said so. I was REALLY looking forward to adding it to my Raph collection."

    I'm pretty sure I know the one you're talking about -- Raph had his sai crossed in front of him, right? I honestly don't know what happened with that one. But I agree, it was pretty cool looking. -- PL

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  52. " Turkish Proverb said...

    ...I would like to ask this question: Why is it that figures of preexisting characters (such as Jagwar) are disapproved in exchange for characters that never existed in the comics or tv shows or movies? How is it considered more profitable to produce a figure noone has heard of rather than producing figures that would already have a small built in following in addition to the random buyers one would get it without having heard of the character?"

    That's a good question, and I wish I had an easy answer. I think what it comes down to is a totally sujective evaluation on the part of those involved (Mirage and Playmates) as to what MIGHT sell the best. Remember, as I said before, we (Mirage) doesn't TELL Playmates what to do, and vice versa. We try to work together to decide what will both be best for the overall line AND sell the best. I wish I could remember precisely everything that went down with the Jagwar figure, but I can't. I do suspect that we probably discussed it, and weighed the fact that Jagwar had appeared in some if the Archie TMNT Adventures books (which is a plus, true, but how much of a plus is debatable) against whether or not whatever figure took his place in the proposed line up was stronger/more appealing/whatever... and Jagwar lost. -- PL

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  53. "Vaughn Michael said...
    Peter You'e missed roses point about the pants lol she's saying why are Don's pants going inside of his shell? shouldn't they cover the entire area unless those are his boxers hehe>>

    I don't know if I missed her point so much as she didn't articulate it terribly well, but who can say?

    Regardless, I do see what you are saying, and perhaps I should have expanded on what I mentioned about the nature of "first shots". It could very well be that that part of the plastron might be resculpted (in the mold cavity) to eliminate the separation line in the plastron area, so that when it is painted the "pants" would look fine. However, it's also possible (though Playmates really doesn't do this that often) that they might NOT recut the mold, but leave that detail in and hope that the paint job (painting over that plastron area with the same color as the "pants") will hide it. I really don't know at this point. -- PL

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  54. PL said...
    " The S said...
    Mr. Laird, I have a question in the same vein, and it actually is related to my response in your "Let's Talk Toys", part 1.

    Since they've been in Volume 4, the 4Kids series, and Tales, and the fact that your dredged them up from a scrapped story of the past, it seems to me that you are fond of the Super Turtles. Were there ever any talk of them being adapted to figure form? It seems weird that they were cross-medium, as well as the subject of a well-liked episode, and we still haven't seen the likes of Shellectro, Dr. Shreddarius, and The Sliver in plastic.

    Thank you for your time."

    You know, I think they were discussed at some point, though I can't say for sure exactly when. I do like those characters, and I'd love to see some figures made of them. Maybe I will bring this up at our next meeting (which I think is sometime this coming month).

    And you're welcome. -- PL

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  55. PL said...
    "SpitfireImages88 said...
    Aw how cute. I'm assuming point #2 was targeted at me as that was one of my ideas. Had you read the entire comment of mine you'd see I made a suggestion to try a pre-order before production of the figures began. But see that would void the entire need for you to address the statement and undermine your point so you graciously left that out of your "comeback"."

    Wrong on all points. My point #2 was actually in response to another person's post. And I didn't comment on your "pre-order" suggestion because I didn't find it terribly interesting or worthy of rejoinder. The "test the water before you jump in" business plan is not a new idea -- in fact, it is such a time-honored and venerable idea that it could somewhat fairly (though not, of course, LITERALLY) be called "as old as the hills". In fact, my understanding is that your suggestion is just a slight variation on the basic approach of companies exhibiting toys annually at Toy Fair in NYC (and at other toy fairs, I would suspect) where they bring in prototypes, show them off, and see what the response from buyers is. If they get enough orders (or, if you will, pre-orders), they go ahead and make and ship the toys. If not, they don't. -- PL

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  56. "SpitfireImages88 said:

    It's obvious Laird isn't reading this anymore as he obviously lost the argument. Which means he's going to ignore us now or run and hide somewhere. Basically what happened with Volume 4 though at least this time around he has the gusto to talk to us a little more then before and I appreciate that.

    Though if you are reading this Laird some advice for ya, learn how to take criticism. Being an artist yourself I would have thought you'd learned this by now."

    Actually, it is obvious to me that -- at least in this instance -- you don't know what you are talking about. For one thing, I do read ALL of the comments on my blog. I don't comment on all of them, just the ones that pique my interest AND I have the time and energy to comment on. If you want to consider that to mean that I've "lost the argument" and am going to "run and hide somewhere", please feel free to wallow in that delusion.

    I've already addressed at length the ludicrous "learn to take criticism" bit in my letters column in TMNT Volume 4, so I won't go into that again. -- PL

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  57. pl said:
    You know, I think they were discussed at some point, though I can't say for sure exactly when. I do like those characters, and I'd love to see some figures made of them. Maybe I will bring this up at our next meeting (which I think is sometime this coming month).

    And you're welcome. -- PL


    Thank you so much. Just the fact that it's crossing your mind again to discuss them is relieving the disappointment that this spectacular failure of a birthday has been :|

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  58. While I loved the old Playmates figures when I was a kid, the stuff they're putting out now just isn't as good. Now I understand that as a smaller company they may have legitimate reasons for not being able put out super articulated or detailed figures. And as a line aimed primarily at children I can see how they really don't care about a small number of older devoted fans. However, nearly every other major property has made products that can appeal to both kids and fans alike. I do not accept for a second that there is nothing that Playmates could do that would fulfill something like this.

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  59. I appreciate you taking the Super Turtle idea to them, Pete. Sometimes I feel the Playmates guys, who are basing their toys off an excellent cartoon series which appeals to all ages, should continue to make the toy line for all ages.

    I don't think anyone is asking for them to go 'adult' in McFarlene Toys 'let's make April a stripper' kind of way. just continue their tradition of making toys that don't cause a rift between different age groups in the fan community.

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  60. Peter Lair said:

    That's a good question, and I wish I had an easy answer. I think what it comes down to is a totally sujective evaluation on the part of those involved (Mirage and Playmates) as to what MIGHT sell the best. Remember, as I said before, we (Mirage) doesn't TELL Playmates what to do, and vice versa. We try to work together to decide what will both be best for the overall line AND sell the best. I wish I could remember precisely everything that went down with the Jagwar figure, but I can't. I do suspect that we probably discussed it, and weighed the fact that Jagwar had appeared in some if the Archie TMNT Adventures books (which is a plus, true, but how much of a plus is debatable) against whether or not whatever figure took his place in the proposed line up was stronger/more appealing/whatever... and Jagwar lost. -- PL


    Well, thanks for responding. Not sure I agree with the decision, but glad you made the effort to explain your logic.

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  61. *puts on pseudo-snarky hat.*
    As I was reading one of the points something came to my mind. Back in the day how much faith did Playmates put into the TMNT? “Green doesn’t sell.” “Turtles? Yeah, right?” “Action Figures are on the out.” Yet Playmates took the idea of adolescent anthropomorphic martial arts terrapins and ran with it, why do they seem so scared of certain secondary characters. They produced a Jagwar. It was cast, pressed, and painted and was still shelved. They took all of the effort and then what, got scared? “Good Mutants don’t sell.” “Mutant Cat? Yeah right.”

    ‘sall I’m sayin’.

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  62. -->> ..what if Jagwar figure were made available similar to the effect the Bigfoot toy was made for special order last fall ??

    Would Playmates be opposed to that idea ?!


    >v<

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  63. Peter Laird said
    "Believe it or not, I am not completely against this idea, and I will -- with a little reluctance -- agree with the supposition that there might be better (or at least more "cartoon accurate") figures that could be made out of Bebop and Rocksteady. Maybe NECA could make them (I am pretty sure that their license could go that far). But for now, I prefer to see NECA doing some of the figures from the comics."

    For starters I want to say thank you for at least reluctantly considering toon accurate figures.

    Again, not a personal attack but this comment baffles me:

    "Maybe NECA could make them (I am pretty sure that their license could go that far)."

    It has been said many times that Playmates wants to make a retro line celebrating the original TMNT figures and you have even said that you have shot the idea down once or twice.

    Playmates is the company that took a chance on your creation 20 years ago, not NECA.

    Playmates deserves the chance to make any retro line, they've earned it.

    I'm sorry but on one hand you keep praising Playmates current efforts like DJ Don but on the other hand your not even loyal enough to Playmates to give them the chance to revisit what THEY made 20 years ago, you would have another company do it.

    I realize that other people are going crazy over NECA's comic figures and that's all good and well but for God's sake have some respect for the company that put TMNT toys on the map in the first place because it sure as Hell wasn't NECA.

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  64. tOkKa said
    what if Jagwar figure were made available similar to the effect the Bigfoot toy was made for special order last fall ??
    Would Playmates be opposed to that idea ?!

    Tokka that's a great idea!! Peter what do you think of this?
    I also don't know if it would be worth it but I know allot of people are very disappointed that the second series of fast forward characters didn't come out and yet where in the painted prototype stages, perhaps 2 packs or a box set of those figures could be released so the molds don't go to a total waste?

    toychiuld4eva said...
    It has been said many times that Playmates wants to make a retro line celebrating the original TMNT figures and you have even said that you have shot the idea down once or twice.
    Playmates is the company that took a chance on your creation 20 years ago, not NECA.
    Playmates deserves the chance to make any retro line, they've earned it.
    I'm sorry but on one hand you keep praising Playmates current efforts like DJ Don but on the other hand your not even loyal enough to Playmates to give them the chance to revisit what THEY made 20 years ago, you would have another company do it.
    I realize that other people are going crazy over NECA's comic figures and that's all good and well but for God's sake have some respect for the company that put TMNT toys on the map in the first place because it sure as Hell wasn't NECA.


    Honestly I would rather Mirage/ Peter work with Neca to make toon versions of the characters because let's face it Playmates just isn't what it used to be and they would end up look perhaps worse than they did the first time round.
    Peter has the right idea with Neca being the choice, but the wrong idea in waiting so long to do so.
    Frankly all just opinions on my part though I just don't see the point in waiting so long when you can only benefit from something now.

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  65. "Vaughn Michael said...
    tOkKa said
    what if Jagwar figure were made available similar to the effect the Bigfoot toy was made for special order last fall ??
    Would Playmates be opposed to that idea ?!
    Tokka that's a great idea!! Peter what do you think of this?"

    Hmm... interesting, but it might be comparing apples to oranges, as they say. I think Playmates was willing to go that route with the "Bigfoot" figure because that character had a signiificant recognition factor, given his prominent role (at least in one extended action sequence) in the "TMNT" movie. Jagwar, cool as he is, has not had that kind of exposure. -- PL

    "I also don't know if it would be worth it but I know a lot of people are very disappointed that the second series of fast forward characters didn't come out and yet where in the painted prototype stages, perhaps 2 packs or a box set of those figures could be released so the molds don't go to a total waste?"

    That sounds like a decent idea to me, but again, that's really Playmates' decision. At this point, I don't know why the later figures were not released. -- PL

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  66. "Vaughn Michael said: I'm not sure it had to do with the level of play value either but it sure didn't hurt my wanting them back then, but a good sculpt to me screams we really care about this product and took the extra effort to make it sell.
    They seem to be doing it with other properties they get for movies such as King Kong, or even older lines such as Skeleton Warriors."

    I like a detailed figure as well as the next person, but I'm not sure how much that matters to the kids to whom Playmates is trying to sell the toys. I'd be interested to know if anyone (individual or toy company) has ever done a careful study about this.

    Your mention of "Skeleton Warriors" made me remember going to a Toy Fair back in the 1990's, to see the new TMNT line, and walking through Playmates' showroom. They had several shelves of prototypes for a line extension for "Skeleton Warriors" which looked FANTASTIC, including a large skeletal dragon figure which was one of the best-looking creature toys I've ever seen.

    But they were never produced, and I am almost certain that it was because -- for whatever reason or reasons -- they just did not get enough orders for them. Too bad... that dragon kicked butt! -- PL

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  67. I'm done with this conversation, really. But I just want to say that I think one reason everyone got so up in arms over the Music Don figure and the resulting aftermath is that is doesn't feel like anyone - Playmates or Mirage - actually has the best interest of the fan in mind. Now, don't take this the wrong way, but there isn't exactly a strong history of this happening in recent history.

    When fans brought up the subject of the old cartoon the answers provided never said, "We love that universe of the Turtles, too, and hopefully we can revisit it sometime in the future. However, right now it is not on our agenda." Instead we got (and this is paraphrasing, mind you), "No, I really didn't like that so I don't want to go there again." And the attitude has felt the same for the Archie comics, as well.

    It doesn't feel like decisions are being made because they are or aren't good business decisions, but rather simply because of one person's personal preference. Then after years of having this attitude thrown in our faces, we see things like Music Don, something FAR more ridiculous than the heart of the original cartoon, getting approved for reasons we really can't get behind.

    I think my preferred answer for why this figure is being made would be, "Sorry, I know this one kinda sucks, but that's how the toy business rolls. Don't worry, we've got some stuff lined-up that I KNOW you'll go nuts over." I just hope that there IS something coming up that fans can get behind. Fandom is so much more fun when everyone has something fantastic to rally behind together. Actually, that's one aspect where last year's movie over-achieved. Not only was the build-up to and actual release of the movie just so damn fun, but we also knew without a doubt that Kevin Munroe was on our side every step of the way.

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  68. And I also think it might be more interesting to see a different take on the classic characters... IF that ever happens. >>>

    I had to retype this so it sounds co-herent and non rambling :). But technically we already saw this with Issue 29. New Shredder, New Toon armor.

    I know the old show isn't your vision for the turtles, and that's why you might be reluctant to use any of the characters again. But...why not approach Lavigne, Ryan, Dan or Murph and see if you guys could re-invent the old toon the way you would have wanted it to be in a 5 part special?

    For instance, we never see why Krang is called a Warlord until the end of the series where he actually invades a planet. A Krang that is funny AND ruthless could be an interesting character. A Shredder that has a bit more back story to him and will back stab you in an instant once he gets the chance. An intelligent Bebop and Rocksteady who use brains and brawn, etc...

    There was this great section of a Turtle Soup collected book that sort of touched on this already done by Mirage artists and I'd love to see more of that..

    I know we are getting a bit off topic from toys, but ideas just hit me as I Read all the replies ;0)

    Later,
    Neil

    Later,
    Neil

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  69. Ok quick and even nice question:
    Mr. Laird,
    Did you veto the "Retro" line because it was basically going to be re-issues of the original sculpts or were there other reasons (that you can discuss, since we know that the business side has a "hush hush" air about it)?

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  70. Thanks for replying to me Peter. It tickles me that your starting to soften up where the original toon is concerned.

    I apologize if I came off as snippy, i'm just incredibly loyal to Playmates Toys or at least the Playmates Toys that used to create amazing toy lines like TMNT, Trek, Dick Tracy, etc.

    If Neca is the only way that you will let Yellow clad reporter April come back then i'll deal. Again, thank you so much for giving this original toon fan some hope. You rock!

    P.S. I also want to say thank you for the epsiode of the new toon where April put the yellow jumpsuit back on and went undercover as a reporter, that was truly the most awesome moment of the new series. -Steven

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  71. People, keep in mind that Mirage and Playmates are in the business of making money. Although Pete has fought for designs to be approved (vac-met fugi) he is still part of the business as well. Everyone should be happy with the toys that are produced. If you are not, then I suggest a career in toy development or marketing with you world dominating master plan being the goal of working between Mirage and Playmates or advertising the products that you'd like to see. Is anyone going to work that hard to see the figures that they want or are they just going to piss and moan in the comment section of blogs? The final word - if you don't like the way things are then do something about it. Maybe you could get some super sculpy and make your own custom figures.

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